Timeline for Is there an expression (or some expressions) we can use instead of "frame challenge"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
22 events
| when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Feb 21, 2018 at 4:06 | history | edited | SevenSidedDieMod | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 2 characters in body
|
| Feb 21, 2018 at 4:01 | history | edited | SevenSidedDieMod | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
make extra-clear that no ban is being advocated
|
| Nov 16, 2017 at 14:22 | comment | added | KorvinStarmast | @doppelspooker OK, thanks. | |
| Nov 16, 2017 at 14:20 | comment | added | doppelgreener Mod | @KorvinStarmast the last section of our faq index covers adding stuff to the faq; that question you've linked to is already marked an faq-proposal per its protocol. | |
| Nov 14, 2017 at 17:25 | comment | added | KorvinStarmast | So how does one propose that for this answer to be a FAQ? | |
| Nov 9, 2017 at 9:39 | comment | added | doppelgreener Mod | There's a tiny set of special cases we handle for not an answer flags beyond what SevenSidedDie described, such as answers based on a ruleset mismatch. (Like, "how do swords work in 5e?" "Here's the sword rules from 2e." Or, "how do I handle this Dungeon World situation?" "Here's how D&D says you should handle it." These answers are functionally useless.) These cases are ones where the community would delete the answer themselves even if we didn't. Frame challenges aren't among the special cases, those are fine. | |
| Nov 8, 2017 at 20:09 | comment | added | SevenSidedDie Mod | Otherwise, "low quality" flags might be validly cast, but those we nearly always let the review queue they trigger handle it instead of intervening. | |
| Nov 8, 2017 at 20:07 | comment | added | SevenSidedDie Mod | @HeyICanChan It's built into the flagging interface for mods. "Not An Answer" is for gibberish and blatantly off-topic posts that don't try to answer. It's the "try" that is critical — if someone is trying to write an answer, its fate is up to up/down votes and we'll let it face the voters. Conversely, an on-topic post that isn't even trying to answer (e.g., just chatting about the topic) fails the "try" test and a NAA flag will be validated. Unfortunately, there isn't a public-facing guide to the mod-side flag guidance that I'm aware of. | |
| Nov 8, 2017 at 14:55 | comment | added | Hey I Can Chan | @SevenSidedDie RE: "We reject those flags as a rule." I didn't know that it was policy for moderators to reject flags claiming that challenges to a question's premise are not answers. Is that enshrined anywhere but here? I'm comfortable instead pointing to that if or when claims arise that an answer that challenges a question's premise is off-topic. | |
| Nov 8, 2017 at 2:54 | comment | added | SevenSidedDie Mod | @HeyICanChan We reject those flags as a rule. We shouldn't complicate the site with new policy ornaments to solve a problem that's already solved by existing structures. We also don't need to tell people that they're allowed to challenge the frame either — the term developed to describe something people already naturally did before we named it. We regularly get frame challenges from novices who've never visited meta; I doubt we could chill that if we wanted to. (At best, we can provide advice on doing it well, which is what our meta about it does.) | |
| Nov 8, 2017 at 0:34 | comment | added | KorvinStarmast | A poor frame challenge gains no official support by saying "this is a frame challenge ... That's one of the few things I can agree with in this discourse.... I think HeyICanChan is on the right track. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 19:54 | comment | added | Hey I Can Chan | Thing is, I expect without acknowledgement in some capacity that such answers are, in fact, okay and actually answers—with a link or through jargon or however—, such answers will be flagged as Not an answer by helpful community members no matter how objectively good such an answer is. Eliminating from the site's vocabulary frame challenge without offering a replacement and making it incumbent on the answer to—directly or indirectly—prove that it's still an answer mutes potentially good answers from new users who don't know that challenging the question is a reasonable way to respond. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 19:17 | comment | added | SevenSidedDie Mod | I think we are talking about different things. I am saying that an answer that has to explicitly defend its decision to be a frame challenge has already failed — by wasting space and influence justifying the wrong thing. Frame challenges should justify why they're right, not that they're permitted. More to that point: we don't have a policy protecting frame challenges as acceptable; what we have is guidance to improve one's chances of being acceptable to voters. They must stand on their own merits. A poor frame challenge gains no official support by saying "this is a frame challenge". | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 18:47 | comment | added | Hey I Can Chan | @SevenSidedDie Respectfully, I disagree. Enshrining that challenging the question's premise — whether that's in via a link to a meta question or through the use of jargon — is an acceptable practice means not having to defend oneself every time one does. I'd rather a link to Meta send folks to where they can read that such answers are okay than have every such answer spend a few hundred words justifying why such answers in general are acceptable. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 17:14 | history | edited | SevenSidedDieMod | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 194 characters in body
|
| Nov 7, 2017 at 17:11 | comment | added | SevenSidedDie Mod | I'm still of the position that gracefully signalling that fact is part of crafting the answer well, and encouraging shortcuts will just degrade the quality of answers. There will be exceptions where a shortcut is used well and isn't a net negative of course, but people can come up with their own bespoke signals that they're challenging the frame without us giving an Official Magic Password. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 17:08 | comment | added | Hey I Can Chan | @doppelspooker I'm totally on board with changing the jargon but I do think there should be a way to signal to readers beforehand This answer addresses an issue with the question itself rather than or in addition to answering the question; please take the answer in that light. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 17:05 | comment | added | doppelgreener Mod | @HeyICanChan I'd rather our internal community not be trained to expect someone to use internal jargon though to signal a type of answer. Back in my day [waves a cane around] we got by just fine without ever explicitly announcing our answer being such. | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 2:19 | comment | added | Hey I Can Chan | @doppelspooker I'd be a fan of that approach, too, except that, in my experience, it's led to confusion and negativity when I didn't mention the answer is a challenge! Certainly, in a perfect word, a question or answer would stand (or fall) on its own merits without need of qualification or editorializing, but that's not where we're at. ("Yet," he says optimistically albeit parenthetically.) | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 0:34 | comment | added | doppelgreener Mod | I'm a fan of skipping saying it's a frame challenge and just doing it. (@NicolBolas We get frame challenges all the time that never refer to themselves as such, including in those circumstance, and they have often done OK — when they're any good in their own right as solutions, thus the risk of these challenges. "X is a bad idea, do this instead" is the model of my best scored post on the network, because it gave itself legs to stand on.) | |
| Nov 7, 2017 at 0:16 | comment | added | Nicol Bolas | I think the problem with issuing a frame challenge without explicitly calling it out as such is that sometimes such answers can come off as argumentative or simply not answering the question. After all, the OP asked "how do I do X?" Answering with "X is a bad idea." or whatever is not technically answering the question. This is particularly true if the OP preemptively says that they don't want to do it in the way the answer says it should be done. | |
| Nov 6, 2017 at 23:31 | history | answered | SevenSidedDieMod | CC BY-SA 3.0 |